forum culture debate :/

[thorin]

Thank you Snayler for your 3min to tell me about punctuation/formatting in my post and Thorin for the 5 min you took of your time to post me a link to fix my problem though it was purposely done that way for a reason.

If you actually read the post you'll note I quoted and was replying to Snayler.

I fail to see any meaningful purpose in demonstrating a lack of care in posting.

To reply to a message I got on the subject about punctuation and does it really matter that much.

Though I do see it being lazy and nonprofessional,there was a few post if I read correctly that mentioned I'm not getting paid for this and some could look and say hey I am not getting graded on this I'm not taking this to a teacher,professor.

On the subject of this thread maybe that's the route the Sr. members etc should take in replying to inane questions or questions encountered ad nauseam.

Isupposewecouldjustwriteallourreplieslikethisandho penoonecaredoractuallywantedtogetanythingusefulfro mus......havingtroublesettingupyournetworkcardstar twithiwconfigthenproceedwithifconfigeth0upetc. After all we're not being graded or paid right?

It may seem off topic but a newbie could pass by this thread and read through and say, wow they can tell this guy about what he done wrong in a post but they cant help me with some thing as simple as getting my wireless card to work.

They could, but they'd simply be demonstrating what we're all talking about here. If that's the conclusion they draw they obviously haven't read the whole thing.

You cant even quote a thread properly? and yes punctuation matters a lot. You have all the time in the world to make a proper post with spell check, its not IRC, or MSN or any other IM type stuff so there is no reason for sloppy posting.

I came across this yesterday and now is seems amazingly fitting for this thread:

Punctuation is powerful

An English professor wrote the words: "A woman without her man is nothing." on the chalkboard and asked his students to punctuate it correctly.

All of the males in the class wrote: "A woman, without her man, is nothing."

All the females in the class wrote: "A woman: without her, man is nothing."

Punctuation is powerful!

[Archangel-Amael]

The answer to this is about 65% or more of the people on this forum don't do this for a living they play around with it at home as a hobby, some even do it to have bragging rights to there friends.Not that I agree with the second part at all but it happens.

I know that. That was merely sarcasm.

Yes I do think proper grammar is important. Not that I am the best at it ( I'm from Texas ).

A good example for this is the members list, where from the 2652 pages it has, the first 2345 are formed of members that have either zero or one post. (I actually went to the trouble of finding the page...)

Nice work. I didn't even realise this could be done.

Backtrack is based on Ubuntu software -yes. Backtrack Forum based on Ubuntu Forum -no.

Pretty much. Why cover again what is already covered ad nauseum. That goes not only for the simple basic linux but also those that would be particular to this forum such as "how to crack xxx" and "Does my xxx work" type questions.

%. I can say that I could see how frustrating it would be to see the same ?'s 88-99% of the time.

Multiply that times days in the week or year etc. to see why it does indeed become old rather fast for some people. Which in turn drives people with knowledge on the subjects away from the forums.

Can i suggest to have this beginners forum a level by level stage so that newbies may know where to start; its like "level 1" linux familiarization and workaround. "level 2" understanding backtrack basic. etc.

Again this is probably not going to happen since it really isn't needed. Why reproduce something that is available and better maintained by ubuntu forums or linuxforums etc. It's a waste of space.

I came across this yesterday and now is seems amazingly fitting for this thread:

Eats shoots leaves

[0megear]

Hey,
My two cent.

It's everywhere the same shit. Graphic design, Security related, Beatmaker... I'm from the graphic designer scene and i mainly code in ActionScript 3 + flex. People keep asking the same ****ing shit because their are too lazy to search for themselve. They want something quick that answer their question fast and make their whole script working in one shot.

When noob tell me "ur a god how kan u code in as3 its too complex pls pls help me" i just want to ****ing rip his head off. I really DO NOT believe in god gift and such shit. I'am just aware that the humain being is really lazy but in my opinion EVERYBODY which is capable of writing something on a forum is capable to become a ****ing good coder or graphic designer or a famous pentester but just stop BEING lazzy. It's all about motivation.

Now i totally agree with good pentester who reply with irony or tell noob to read the manual. Why would them spent their precious time with people coming here and just telling that "this" or "this" doesn't work ? Those noob will probably just playing with WEP crack to impress some friend which is, in my opinion, the most acessible ressource and the less interesting on backtrack...

Just check on youtube... 500 tutorial with the same routine. airmon-ng, etc with metal, techno, electro, hardstyle, rock, rap... zZz ! It's all the same.

[Liuser]

I have a question for the moderators - do we need to explicitly specify that we are performing legal activities in posts when we ask for help on a particular scenario? I asked for help a little while ago by creating a thread where the moderator locked the thread because they accused me of illegal activities. I PM'ed the moderator but received no response so I just let sleeping dogs lie.

However, for future reference I guess it would be good to know how I should word my posts.

[purehate]

In the future if you do not get a response from a moderator then please send Balding_Parrot or myself a message telling us the problem and the moderator you contacted.

[lupin]

I have a question for the moderators - do we need to explicitly specify that we are performing legal activities in posts when we ask for help on a particular scenario? I asked for help a little while ago by creating a thread where the moderator locked the thread because they accused me of illegal activities. I PM'ed the moderator but received no response so I just let sleeping dogs lie.

However, for future reference I guess it would be good to know how I should word my posts.

Im not commenting here specifically about what you asked this moderator, because I don't know what you asked (or do I - is the moderator you are referring to me?), but if you would like a response back from a moderator via PM you should make it clear that you are asking a question, that its related to an issue of how something you posted was moderated and that you would appreciate a response. Speaking personally sometimes I get a large number of PMs, and while I always try and reply, sometimes I get busy and something might get missed. This is especially likely to happen if the person sending me the PM was not clear about what they wanted from me, or if the question they were asking appeared rhetorical.

Messages stating something like "OMG,,, why did u just infract me for tHat,,, you nazi??!!??" without including more details about the infraction are the most likely to get overlooked, because if the poster waits more than a day before sending this its likely I don't remember why I did it, because I have sent so many infractions in the preceding period, and they are all so similar, that they have blended together in my head (yes, I know, that is a little depressing). The fact that I have to go and find the thread that prompted the question means that the message gets put at the end of my "to do" queue, and if something from real life interrupts me before I finish I might not come back to it, especially if I think the person sending the message might have just been having a whine or did not ask a question requiring an answer.

As to how to work your posts, if you are asking about advice for a legitimate pen test you should mention this up front. There's one particular thing that you should always have, in a particular format, before you started a pen test, that you can mention. Something that covers your ass if something goes bad. Im not coming right out and saying what it is because I don't want to provide a set of magic words for script kiddies to include in their posts to prove they are legit, but Im sure people who do this for a living will know what Im talking about. Refer to that thing in some fashion, and do it using language that demonstrates you know what it's for and why it's important.

I will say though that we get so many attempts to socially engineer us into believing that someone is testing with authorisation that our antennas are probably a little too sensitive when it comes to this subject, and we may tend to err on the side of caution to protect ourselves and the forum. There was a thread a little while ago where I went into detail about why, which you should be able to find if you're interested. If you persevere in a polite fashion and ensure that you are presenting yourself professionally though, you have the best chance of not being written of as behaving illegally.

Speaking for myself and not any of the other moderators, I make judgements on this issue based on whether the asked about activity would be likely to be included in a legitimate test, whether the poster seems to have the basic level of knowledge required for a pentester, whether something about the penetration testing process is mentioned, and whether the person asking the question presents themselves in the professional manner I would expect from a pentester. A lot of this is based on the way that the question is asked and what language is used. I work in the industry and deal with a lot of professionals in the field so I know how they act and how they talk.

I came across this yesterday and now is seems amazingly fitting for this thread:

Really liked that example of the power of punctuation by the way.

[g3ksan]

I'll quote something streaker69 posted on the Defcon forums for me:

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life

How did you feel the first time a mod or senior user flamed you for being stupid? Did you want to curl up in the fetal position and give up, or were you determined to prove them that you were worthy?

Just because you have access to the internet and have questions, doesn't mean you should just post your question on a forum without doing basic research.

I agree with most of the senior guys here, I just thought I would add some food for thought for people who might want to complain or just don't get the culture. I haven't been posting in a while because I've been working my ass off in silence and doing the research without having to ask questions cause guess what, it's all there on the internet. Even the old forums are indexed by Google still and they can answer some obscure questions from time to time. Try harder.

edit: I didn't see it while looking through this thread, but the quote I put up there is in Lupin's signature.

[skull-port]

As to how to work your posts, if you are asking about advice for a legitimate pen test you should mention this up front. There's one particular thing that you should always have, in a particular format, before you started a pen test, that you can mention. Something that covers your ass if something goes bad. Im not coming right out and saying what it is because I don't want to provide a set of magic words for script kiddies to include in their posts to prove they are legit, but Im sure people who do this for a living will know what Im talking about. Refer to that thing in some fashion, and do it using language that demonstrates you know what it's for and why it's important.

I will say though that we get so many attempts to socially engineer us into believing that someone is testing with authorisation that our antennas are probably a little too sensitive when it comes to this subject, and we may tend to err on the side of caution to protect ourselves and the forum. There was a thread a little while ago where I went into detail about why, which you should be able to find if you're interested. If you persevere in a polite fashion and ensure that you are presenting yourself professionally though, you have the best chance of not being written of as behaving illegally.

Speaking for myself and not any of the other moderators, I make judgements on this issue based on whether the asked about activity would be likely to be included in a legitimate test, whether the poster seems to have the basic level of knowledge required for a pentester, whether something about the penetration testing process is mentioned, and whether the person asking the question presents themselves in the professional manner I would expect from a pentester. A lot of this is based on the way that the question is asked and what language is used. I work in the industry and deal with a lot of professionals in the field so I know how they act and how they talk.

Hi lupin. Would it be easier for the one particular thing to be provided to the moderators, followed by a post from a mod to confirm "perceived as legitimate" for example? I appreciate this could appear very strict, however I can easily see how a skilled individual could appear legitimate and considering the competence of many skilled individuals here, receive what could be perceived as high level support. Are there any ramifications for the forum, mods and thread contributors if candidate X is caught, claims incompetence, drugs, blah blah and “they told me what to do type” thing... Or do the forum rules provide legitimate cover for any liability?
I appreciate posting an answer could also be problematic so NHF if you choose to ignore it.

[lupin]

edit: I didn't see it while looking through this thread, but the quote I put up there is in Lupin's signature.

Yep. Streaker69 mentioned it in a thread at the old remote-exploit forums as well, and my response was - "That's going to be my new signature".

Hi lupin. Would it be easier for the one particular thing to be provided to the moderators, followed by a post from a mod to confirm "perceived as legitimate" for example? I appreciate this could appear very strict, however I can easily see how a skilled individual could appear legitimate and considering the competence of many skilled individuals here, receive what could be perceived as high level support. Are there any ramifications for the forum, mods and thread contributors if candidate X is caught, claims incompetence, drugs, blah blah and “they told me what to do type” thing... Or do the forum rules provide legitimate cover for any liability?
I appreciate posting an answer could also be problematic so NHF if you choose to ignore it.

Difficult question. IANAL, but I believe that the requirement for being considered an accessory or an accomplice to a crime is that you need to have a reasonable belief that the assistance you are providing will be used in the commission of a crime. If on the other hand you have a reasonable belief that the person asking the question was performing a legitimate penetration test, and it was to some extent backed up by the "evidence", you could make a good faith claim that you thought that the situation was as described by the poster and you had no knowledge of an intention to break the law. I think we also would be able to demonstrate more than reasonable care in NOT providing assistance when there was evidence that something illegal was going to take place, so I think on balance we would probably be OK. But really, who knows - I'm not aware of any case law to provide a precedent for something like this.

[Liuser]

(or do I - is the moderator you are referring to me?), but if you would like a response back from a moderator via PM you should make it clear that you are asking a question, that its related to an issue of how something you posted was moderated and that you would appreciate a response.

Hi Lupin, no it was not you. I thought I did respond to the moderator clearly and politely. I stated that it was a legal pentest and I have the appropriate signed paperwork from both parties to prove it. However, at the same time I cannot provide the client's name due to NDA.

Definitely not attacking moderators, I understand there is a lot of crud to filter through on these forums. The next time I ask for help though, I now know it would be a good idea to state up front it is legal. In my mind, I thought my question was not basic enough to be deemed newby-ish and script kiddy like, so I would receive help. But then again others may have thought otherwise.

Let me know if you want to know the thread in question and I will PM (or I will contact Balding_Parrot as purehate suggested), since I am still curious as to the answer of my original question. I am finished with the pentest for that particular client, but I figure it is still something that would be good to know for my records.

Thanks!