forum culture debate :/

[purehate]

This type of thread comes up about every month. Its always by a new member who feels he is somehow being treated unfairly. Here is how I feel about the subject. This forum is dedicated to the getting, burning,installing and tweaking of backtrack-linux. If the question has any thing to do with one of these issues it should be answered by "senior" members UNLESS its clearly written in the FAQ or some other obvious location. People most of all seem to forget that most of us have jobs, families and all sorts of other stuff which prevent us from sitting on the computer and answering the same question 20 times a day. I for one get very annoyed with questions like "whats the username/password" or "Will Backtrack work on..."
What this forum is not for is how to hack or how to use the hacking tools on Backtrack. Its true we have lots of posts and tutorials on hacking however this is NOT the main focus of the forum. Almost every tool has a website, a man page or some other set of instructions and there are plenty of blogs and websites with tutorials for these tools. Its for this reason that I could care less to answer any of these types of questions. Thats not to say I will not help but only if the poster has demonstrated that they are having a real problem and have truly searched.

[thorin]

My biggest problem is that I didnt know correct terms do googling was no good. but most of times after knowing correct terms google have helped a lot.

Unfortunately this is kind of the point. If someone can't even figure out what to search for, then obviously they're trying to do something beyond their abilities, which will likely result in them causing problems for someone. It might be just that they mess up their own system or network, but it's also very likely that they mess up a system or network at work or at school. Worse yet if they interfere with a Gov't or business system.

@dromar421: Don't take me the wrong way, but the lack of punctuation/formatting on your post makes it really hard to read. Especially the lack of commas, that you should use to separate sentences, like I just did.

Commas don't separate sentences, periods do.

Edit: I started to list the proper uses of commas, but as my list got to 5 it occurred to me that there are a fair number of instances where commas are applicable, and that it would simply derail this thread to list them all. Instead I dug up this link which I'll simply provide as reference:
Rules for Comma Usage

This is/was surely the greatest thing about the forum, being a nerd should at least come with a few props, one of them being the satisfaction gained from the "mocking" of n00bs. Here is a thread similar to this one, my opinions shared within, perfectly, apply here.

I don't see it as mocking, though that is how some of the new people take it. Personally I see it as a simple statement of fact, if you're question has been answered over and over again or is obviously answered by searching then stating so is FACT.

Almost every tool has a website, a man page or some other set of instructions and there are plenty of blogs and websites with tutorials for these tools. Its for this reason that I could care less to answer any of these types of questions. Thats not to say I will not help but only if the poster has demonstrated that they are having a real problem and have truly searched.

Agreed. If someone is using BT (or trying to) and can't search or figure out "man <command>", "<command> --help", to read the "README" or to check the actual main site of a particular tool, sorry but you're in the wrong place trying to use the wrong thing. (Be it BT, the tool in question, or an OS other than Windows).

I equate such situations with something like visiting a car enthusiast forum and asking how to: put gas in your car, check your tire pressure, change your tires, top up your oil, etc.

[lupin]

This is/was surely the greatest thing about the forum, being a nerd should at least come with a few props, one of them being the satisfaction gained from the "mocking" of n00bs. Here is a thread similar to this one, my opinions shared within, perfectly, apply here.

While it may be amusing, I think this behavior can also come off as a little childish and unprofessional. It reflects poorly on the person making those comments, because it's really only bullies that take advantage of their superior position to pick on, mock, or otherwise belittle those in a weaker position. I have behaved like this in the past, and it's not something I'm particularly proud of when I look back on it, because that's not how I would like to be remembered. I'm sure many people here may have experienced this bullying behavior back in school (for some reason thats pretty common amongst people who are into computers...), but that's no excuse for behaving like that now, and I think it is in fact a good reason NOT to behave like that now.

Please note that I'm deliberately separating the issue of not mocking people from the issue of applying forum standards. I still will not allow posts asking how to crack WEP, but I wont be deliberately rude or insulting when I deny it (I might be abrupt, but thats more because of time constraints rather than intention towards impoliteness). And I'm also not having a go at you killadaninja - I haven't actually noticed you mocking (or bullying) anyone as yet, and I wasn't implying that you were doing that.

I'll come back and edit this post with a few more thoughts in a little bit.

[oODigiXOo]

I am noob to backtrack, and my gurlfriend lost her password for windowz. Can anyone halps me to recover, pleaz? JK.

I really am a noob, and in the past I have worked in a hardware testing and troubleshooting environment where it was normal to spend many hours scouring Google, and any other tech sites/forums trying to get through one problem. I would always end up walking away for a bit, sometimes a few minutes to a few hours, and when I would come back I would have the problem resolved pretty much immediately. The same holds true to learning how to use backtrack. Anytime I end up stuck, I eventually walk away for a few minutes, and come back and reread the same posts/websites over again and find exactly what I need to do. In the end, I feel much more accomplished having discovered the answer by scouring, then by immediately posting a question that has already been covered a hundred times.

As a final note, I sometimes enjoy seeing some of the ignorance people tend to spew from their holes, and enjoy the flaming even more.

Dig

[Archangel-Amael]

I always wonder why no noob comes and asks how to do a proper write up on their findings from doing a penetration test.
A "Hey I just finished testing xyz but I don't have a clue how to present my finding to the CEO, board of directors etc."
That would be a nice change of pace once in a while.

As for the elitist attitude while some may come with the territory, I also agree that with lupin in that, while we do expect some basic abilities on the part of the user, we also don't really want to belittle them (too much).
As has been stated we all have to start somewhere. Which is also exactly why I made the sticky for those new to linux and or BT.
I know personally those pages have helped me on several occasions. Hell I even keep it bookmarked on one of my browsers for reference.

I guess we may also need a post on how to search using google, or a basic troubleshooting threads of some sorts.
But then again that is really beyond a written tutorial and the scope of the forums.

[thorin]

I really am a noob, and in the past I have worked in a hardware testing and troubleshooting environment where it was normal to spend many hours scouring Google, and any other tech sites/forums trying to get through one problem. I would always end up walking away for a bit, sometimes a few minutes to a few hours, and when I would come back I would have the problem resolved pretty much immediately.

This is great advice for anything that people work on.

I end up reviewing and correcting/editing huge numbers of documents (reports, proposals, statements of work, etc) at my job. As new people come aboard and I end up reviewing their docs I always suggest that they take some time away from it and review it themselves before sending it to me. There are soooo many obvious and small yet significant issues that you overlook when you've been working on a particular task to too long period of time. In the end this accomplishes two things: 1) They get better at writing and reviewing their own work, and 2) They don't think I'm just a jerk with a red pen (or at least not as much of one ).

The same holds true to learning how to use backtrack. Anytime I end up stuck, I eventually walk away for a few minutes, and come back and reread the same posts/websites over again and find exactly what I need to do. In the end, I feel much more accomplished having discovered the answer by scouring, then by immediately posting a question that has already been covered a hundred times.

Totally true.

[dromar421]

I always wonder why no noob comes and asks how to do a proper write up on their findings from doing a penetration test.

The answer to this is about 65% or more of the people on this forum don't do this for a living they play around with it at home as a hobby, some even do it to have bragging rights to there friends.Not that I agree with the second part at all but it happens.

Thank you Snayler for your 3min to tell me about punctuation/formatting in my post and Thorin for the 5 min you took of your time to post me a link to fix my problem though it was purposely done that way for a reason. To reply to a message I got on the subject about punctuation and does it really matter that much.My answer to that was we will see in this post of debate. Though I do see it being lazy and nonprofessional, there was a few post if I read correctly that mentioned I'm not getting paid for this and some could look and say hey I am not getting graded on this I'm not taking this to a teacher/professor.

new users should be able to:[*]search properly, [*]use basic computer and Linux skills, [*]solve common problems themselves, [*]perform simple troubleshooting, and [*]express a coherent thought via the appropriate language of the area they post in, with something resembling proper grammar and spelling (for this section of the forum: English).

Sorry but we all might want to start adding the punctuation/formatting in with all that.

It may seem off topic but a newbie could pass by this thread and read through and say, wow they can tell this guy about what he done wrong in a post but they cant help me with some thing as simple as getting my wireless card to work.

(generic newbie.)

Is that what all the older members really think about the new comers or am I taking it wrong.

Please do not feel that I am trying to disrespect in any way just hoping to clear these things for myself and other members that might wonder the same things.

[purehate]

You cant even quote a thread properly? and yes punctuation matters a lot. You have all the time in the world to make a proper post with spell check, its not IRC, or MSN or any other IM type stuff so there is no reason for sloppy posting.

[lupin]

To reply to a message I got on the subject about punctuation and does it really matter that much.My answer to that was we will see in this post of debate.Though I do see it being lazy and nonprofessional,there was a few post if I read correctly that mentioned I'm not getting paid for this and some could look and say hey I am not getting graded on this I'm not taking this to a teacher,professor.

It matters if you expect people to read and understand what you say, and if you bother to say something presumably you do want people to understand it. I stop paying attention very quickly if a person cannot write properly - why should I go to the effort of trying to make sense of a badly written post when the poster obviously hasn't gone to the effort of writing it properly?

It may seem off topic but a newbie could pass by this thread and read through and say, wow they can tell this guy about what he done wrong in a post but they cant help me with some thing as simple as getting my wireless card to work.

I think its important to spend time discussing things like this. We haven't really discussed this topic for a while (even though, as purehate mentioned, it does come up from time to time), and this information, as a moderator will help me moderate more effectively. Plus I'm hoping some new members will read this and be educated as to why we act the way we do here - I intend to forward a few people to this thread in future instead of explaining things on an individual basis. My hope is that this discussion will improve the state of the forum to some extent (that might be wishful thinking) and will save me time in future when someone sends me a private message complaining about the infraction they just got, and I can just say "read this here thread for the reasons why".

Is that what all the older members really feel about the new comers or am I taking it wrong.

That we don't owe assistance to new members here? Sure. We don't owe people an answer unless they are paying us for our expertise, if we give an answer it's because we choose to, because we get some level of satisfaction or enjoyment out of it. This forum is maintained by volunteers after all - we are not getting paid - so why should we be under an obligation to do anything (other than maybe show basic common courtesy)? Were you under a different impression?

To a certain extent this attitude doesn't just apply to newcomers, but in their case we cant even say we might help out of a sense of reciprocation, where you do someone for someone because they have done something for you or for the community. This is essentially because so many new members just post here putting in zero effort and then never come back and never contribute themselves.

We do this because we enjoy answering good questions, we don't do it because we want to act as unpaid first level technical support. And there is a difference between the two, one involves helping someone fix their own problem, and the other involves fixing the problem for them. And one of those things is something no one in their right mind wants to do for free.

If people want someone else to do all the work for them, they should be paying for the privilege.

[Barry]

Did I say that? If I didn't, I should have! It sure sounds like my attitude.

I'm fairly certain you said it on the Netstumbler forums, but I couldn't find it. It was on one of the many "the forum regulars are assholes" threads.