NIC Card support is terrible!!!

[lcasey]

After many weeks I finally gave up on this Backtrack software, conceited community of mightier than though attitudes and frustration with Poor documentation.

I bought a AirPcap card and installed the windows tools and have absolutely NO and I mean NO compatibility issues at all. I crack wpa-psk as simple as copying a file.

I have been to our local best buy and purchased different (supported Cards) and none of them work with Backtrack 3 or Backtrack 4 Pre Release.The versions of the cards are all too new and Backtrack is BEHIND the times with new NIC drivers.

Lets take the Linksys WUSB600N. It is now up to Ver 2 and Backtrack doesnt support it. No surprise there. Lets take the WUSB54GC. The newest version is ver 3. Backtrack doesnt support it. Again no surprise.

Lets face it Backtrack community, you CANT keep up with NIC driver support like Windows can!!!!

Then, I look at all the posts where newbies ask for simple instructions on how to install drivers in Backtrack to get these cards to work and some smart @#$% will respond with an absolutely useless rant about how the newbie failed to do something. Oh real nice.

I used to enjoy working with this software but manufacturers are making new versions of NIC cards way faster than Backtrack or Linux for that matter will EVER be able to keep up with.

Anyone who values thier time, Please just use the windows tools and spend a little more money on GOOD hardware and you wont be wasting valuable time on trying to get poorly supported drivers working.

Too Bad, Backtrack could have potential if the community would only try to help one another instead of bashing people who they think arent doing thier homework. After all some people may ask stupid questions But:

Does anyone know what SMTP adddress a Microsoft Exchange Server 2007 puts in the reply field of a NDR sent with A DL address?

Gee, If you dont work with Exchange server you probably would post in a community forum where, Although this is friggin simple, I would point you to precise documentation that would help you to understand. No just bash you for asking stupid questions.

And for that matter, Anyone new to the backtrack community, I challenge you with this:

1. How do you install a new NIC card driver in Linux?

[lupin]

While I cant personally confirm because I dont have the cards in question, the links below seem to indicate that those cards do work with BackTrack.

Linksys WUSB600N
http://backtrack.offensive-security....nksys_WUSB600N
http://forums.remote-exploit.org/bac...-wusb600n.html

Linksys WUSB54GC
http://backtrack.offensive-security....nksys_WUSB54GC
http://forums.remote-exploit.org/new...r-problem.html

Are you saying that the particular new versions of the cards you brought aren't working? Can you confirm what troubleshooting steps you took to confirm the the problem is caused by BackTracks driver support? What commands did you run to get your network running?

And as for our supposed "conceited community of mightier than though attitudes" ... well what can I say....

Linux can be difficult to use and it does require that the user put in more effort to use it than for your typical Microsoft product. You will need to be able to do research on your own to use it, especially in the case of BackTrack Linux, which can be more difficult to use than your average Linux because it deliberately doesn't start certain Operating System features (like Networking) by default in order to make it suitable for its intended purpose of pentesting.

Since BackTrack is an advanced Linux distribution, we expect people to have basic Linux skills before they start using it, and we do tell people this. We don't generally want to get basic Linux questions involving how to setup a network card here, especially considering that there is information all over the web on how to setup network cards in Linux, and there are many other Linux forums that will happily provide this sort of help. Here, we would rather focus on things that are unique to BackTrack (like questions involving the security tools that are included.)

Now taking into consideration all of this, people who come here and ask "how do I get my wireless network going in BackTrack", without showing any indication that they have searched the forums and Google, and made an effort to resolve the problem themselves using the copious amounts of information on the Internet will probably get a cold reception. As a moderator I will step in if I see anyone being overly rude, but I won't step in if I see anyone telling the member to search the forums or to try a easier Linux distribution, because more often than not I agree that this is what the poster should have done.

Really, this is our way of protecting our communications channel, because neither myself (nor many of the other senior members I expect) want to continue to remain here if the only thing we see here is endless questions on the same basic subjects. It's already a rare day when I dont see five to ten new topics on basic networking, and I have no desire for this situation to get worse.

So if some people get offended by our cold shoulder when they come here and spout off a basic question without putting in the effort themselves first - what can I say, life is tough sometimes....

[Lincoln]

[Gitsnik]

Lets face it Backtrack community, you CANT keep up with NIC driver support like Windows can!!!!

I like this one, and as one of those conceited community members, I feel the urge to explain this to any newbie who comes across this thread.

First, Linux is not Windows. It seems sort of obvious, but it is an important point to consider as we continue to read.

Now, second point, Windows - despite my best efforts in both the Mac and *nix worlds - has a HUGE usage base. It is in more companies, schools and homes than anything I can think of other than nagging wives and TV's (see what I did there ).

Continuing from our second point, the third point is thus: Because windows has such a huge usage base, and because it is economically and business viable, most companies only release drivers FOR windows. It makes sense really - why use rifle bullets on a red-belly-black-snake when a shotgun filled with scatter pellets is more likely to hit it, and by that token, why go to the effort of writing specific software (learning to fire a gun properly) to target each and every user, when you can just write a generic one for the biggest base (scatter gun).

Fourth point: Because of all the above, the portage of drivers from Windows to Linux tends to be community driven - a driver will be written when someone with the know how has the chance to do so. This "chance" usually relies on someone (such as myself) disassembling the code used for the drivers on windows and working with it from there - so you are unlikely to have support for the latest kit unless it is released with Linux support. Let me tell you right now that this is HARD. If you want to have a cry about not having your drivers, I suggest you learn to do this and see why.

Fifth Point: Even when we have drivers, a lot of companies like to close-source their software, which makes it A FRACKING LOT harder to pull apart. I used to spend days dropping to SoftICE just to get an idea of what is going on*. The time and effort involved almost outweighed the benefits, and has since come to do so.

Sixth Point: Project Evil (NDIS) can work on a limited basis to counter point 5, but it's not guaranteed.

And finally, Seventh Point: You get backtrack for free. If you have a problem with it, well, you got what you paid for.

In the immortal words of some Warhammer 40k players I know:

Suck it up, cupcake.

Hopefully this serves to enlighten some of you as to why some things don't work. Incidentally a two minute google for "ubuntu + NIC install" turned up a result that worked perfectly for me, and the same for one that included NDIS wrappers as well.

*Exploit Writers: Doesn't that piece of software take you back

[lcasey]

Lupin,

You do bring up some good points and I really respect the fact that Backtrack is an "Advanced" linux distribution. I wasnt looking at it that way and I think you are right in defending that fact on the forums.

My initial thought was that backtrack was an "all inclusive" for the beginner also, but if the requirement is Advanced linux then I myself fall short.

I have been a Windows Systems Engineer for many years and have used Centos Linux in some VOIP solutions that I deploy. However I have never really been a Linux user.

After trying to figure out how to install NIC drivers in Backtrack, I just gave up and bought a $300.00 AirPcap card. It was all plug and play and capturing Wireless packets was as easy as turning on my computer. The end result I was looking for was achieved.

I have an HP DC 7600 Desktop and have tried Backtrack 3.0 and 4.0

In Backtrack 3.0 It would recognize the onboard NIC and I could at least get to the internet, however it would not recognize my Wireless Cards.

Backtrack 4.0 would not even recognize my onboard nic or my wireless cards leaving me with NO connectivity at all.

Yet with Windows this is all childs play and that is what brought my frustrating post. To Install a device driver in windows you simply:

1. Right Click my computer and select manage
2. Click Device Manager
2. Right click the device you want to update the driver for in the list and select Update Deice driver Software

Easy as 1 2 3 and can be explained quickly. But you are correct, in comparison, If I was on a Microsoft Exchange 2007 forum and someone asked how to add a device driver for windows, I would just assume they were a complete newbie and wonder why they would be on the forum to begin with. My response would be perhaps short, but not cold.

However, I work with programers who literally have asked me how to add a device driver in Windows 7. Im not kidding!!! And they can read C++ Code like it is a kids book.

Sometimes we just get tired. I read at least 65% of my spare time on JUST microsoft technology and to try and also load myself with Linux Expertise would require me to totally Ignore my children and family members as I would never get any free time.

The end result we are all looking for is to be able to perform the penetration testing with the tools that Backtrack Provides. That in itself is a huge undertaking to understand all the methodology behind it. I am new to security testing and have heard that Backtrack was the "Platnum" tool to use. However there is a VERY steep learning curve to get used to the underlying Linux platform. My mistakek was thinking that Backtrack was supposed to hide those underlying complexities.

After all, Using kismet or airsnort...etc... are the tools that we really need to understand. What platform they work on is not so important I realized and it seems that the Windows tools can do everything Backtrack can do. I will stick with Windows to do all of my testing but will slowly study Linux as well.

I do appologize for the frustrating post, and now that I have experienced working with windows penetration testing I know that I can relax and take more time to learn Linux.

LOL... Ok , ok, Im having a bad hair day...LOL...

I should have known better, But jeez man, I study my Friggin but off and feel like I get stupider every day!!!

It just makes me mad to think of how much I dont Know!!! And yet I have a job where people think I am some kind of Computer Guru. If only they knew what an Idiot I am...

[Lincoln]

These might be of some help to get you started:

http://www.offensive-security.com/vi...backtrack.html
Linux Internet Connection - Virjacode
http://forums.remote-exploit.org/new...ad-thread.html

The Wambulance pic was posted because I thought you were going to continue to rant and rave as seen many times here.

Best of luck.

[lupin]

As I was originally a Windows administrator before I started using Linux about 7 years ago, I can understand your frustration. Linux is a lot different from Windows, and skill in a Windows environment does not translate well to Linux. Its almost like you need a completely different mindset to understand Linux than what is required for Windows.

Windows seems to be designed primarily for ease of use, and I will say that it is quite easy to intuitively work out how to do things on Windows just by poking around the GUI, and for those rare occaisions when you need to look things up you can usually get by just searching the Microsoft KB.

As a beginner, Linux, at least for me, was not intuitive. Even though I have done Linux courses in the last few years, when I started with Linux I was essentially teaching myself, and I spent a LOT of time searching the Internet to learn how to do even basic things like to add a user, install a driver, access a removable disk, configure an IP address, connect to a Windows share, set up a wireless network etc. All stuff I could do very easily with Windows because it either just worked or it was easy to intuitively find the controls in the GUI. It was frustrating, but in the end it paid off, because I can now use it effectively and I find that the degree of control Linux gives me and the new possibilities this makes available for advanced system usage (especiall in the areas of IR, forensics and pentesting) makes me loathe to go back to Windows when I need to do so.

I also now have a much better understanding how all of those aforementioned things work now, because Linux requires you to understand things better before you can use them - this is hugely beneficial if you work in IT. So it has made me better at my job.

As well though, this experience has ingrained the need for searching into me. Id regard it as a requirement to be able to use Linux effectively, and especially when you want to use Linux for advanced subjects like pentesting. So, yes, it does frustrate me a little when I see people come here and quickly fire off basic questions without trying to search and learn about what they are doing first. I see it as pointless that these people are even trying to use an Advanced Linux distribution if they cant learn by themselves, because its not likely that they are going to get anywhere.

When I first started here I used to respond to some of these questions, sometimes in a short fashion, telling them to search, sometimes by giving detailed help. By the time I had seen the hundredth post on the subject of basic wireless networking however (and no that is not an exaggeration) my patience had worn thin and I stopped responding to those type of posts almost entirely.

Anyway, if you're willing to stick with it, I think you will gain some benefits by learning Linux and BackTrack. It is a great tool for pentesting, but it does require that you have Linux skills first. However you will benefit from those Linux skills and become a more effective IT Professional.

Check out the Basic Linux thread in the Newbie forum, and you may aso want to have a play with Ubuntu to beef up your Linux skills (try configuring things from the command line)

EDIT: And by the way, I also admire it when people can move past their initial conceptions of us as a bunch of rude bastards once we explain our reasoning for the behaviour that leads to this impression. As Lincoln mentioned, I was expecting further ranting and raving from you after my response, but Im happy to be proven wrong.

[Archangel-Amael]

You do bring up some good points and I really respect the fact that Backtrack is an "Advanced" linux distribution. I wasnt looking at it that way and I think you are right in defending that fact on the forums.
My initial thought was that backtrack was an "all inclusive" for the beginner also, but if the requirement is Advanced linux then I myself fall short.

As for "all inclusive for t he beginner" if you mean by a tool suite that contains more than enough for someone to discover a computer and gain access and or control over it and then write up a report then BT would be that and much more. Not to mention it is free.
As for the drivers in addition to what Gitsnick has mentioned with MS and Money, a lot of the guys developing drivers for linux don't get paid. Or don't survive off of this work. Many do it out of passion.
Now If people are doing things for money vs passion then we can extrapolate which of the two products (sic.) would/could be better.
Further if you think that BT4 is bad, then I would hate to hear what you would say about bt2 or earlier.
As pure_hate one of the developers mentioned most people grab BT and try to crack a wep because they heard about how "easy and cool" it is. After a time or two trying they either succeed and go back to whence they came or they fail and do likewise. Either way that is just fine by us.

Also if you do plan to stick around then welcome. Check as was mentioned by Lincoln the thread that I wrote in regards to being new.
That was one of the first things that I wanted to put together to help people out so that could start navigating not only into Back Track but linux in general.

[imported_hatake_kakashi]

To the OP:

1) Backtrack is part of linux, if linux doensn't have the chipset support its not linux that is the one at fault. Microsoft has all their drivers pre-made for them, why? because they have a very large share on the average consumer market. All they do is sign the driver and off it goes in with the next update. Have you ever considered in cases like Apple Mac OSX, *BSD, and Solaris? Where their support for a range of hardware is less than that of on linux? You show lack of research and you're simply arguing a simple mere issue of unsupported hardware pointing its OS at fault.

2) Microsoft Windows is payware, linux is free software.. comparing these two is like trying to argue about the poor quality of meals you get from your local church if and when they provide free meals. Have you ever actually considered to purchase a linux distribution for support? Obviously you haven't according to the way you rant.

3) I hate to say this but have you actually ever provided free support roles for well over 2 years? If so where is your proof? Have you gained anything by providing free support? Your lopsided comments indicate that the people who provide free support must kiss your feet and listen to your complaints like as if they were paid to care. If you don't like free support, go pay for support. Nobody said you had to go through free support and then complain like as if you're some sort of king. Remember, backtrack is linux, its freeware, not payware. You are not a client of linux therefore if you have an issue with linux go back to your windows land where I'm sure you can be more than happy to pay money for softwares and then whinge and moan when things don't work. I'm sure they'll be more than happy to listen to you.

[imported_vvpalin]

I feel kinda bad now for um .. anyways.

Visit aircrack-ng's wiki .. go buy a alfa1 card from data-alliance.com and and return that card you purchased.

There are so many wifi attacks you simply can not do with windows.