View Poll Results: What type of system do you use most?

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Thread: ubuntu?

  1. #11
    My life is this forum Barry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by streaker69 View Post
    This is by far the best way to learn Linux.

    Of course, dependency hell really sucks.
    That's true with any distro. You can also install stuff from source in Ubuntu(which is really just Debian) too.
    Of course, if you really wanted to have some fun, go to Wal-Mart late at night and ask the greeter if they could help you find trashbags, roll of carpet, rope, quicklime, clorox and a shovel. See if they give you any strange looks. --Streaker69

  2. #12
    Very good friend of the forum Virchanza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by streaker69 View Post
    This is by far the best way to learn Linux.

    Of course, dependency hell really sucks.

    By dependency hell, do you mean:

    1) Getting compiler errors like "libnet.h not found".
    2) Getting errors when you actually go to run the program.
    3) Both

    (I'm genuinely curious)
    Ask questions on the open forums, that way everybody benefits from the solution, and everybody can be corrected when they make mistakes. Don't send me private messages asking questions that should be asked on the open forums, I won't respond. I decline all "Friend Requests".

  3. #13
    Good friend of the forums spawn's Avatar
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    I am administrator I have some years
    and in my opinion is: time is money and ubuntu is very simple to use

    My Prefer Linux Distribution ! OH! of course ! Slackware LINUX for the real nerds! my base of *nix !
    and ... too the supreme Gentoo Linux ! my prefer meta distro! fantastic performance !

    Ubuntu it is very pratatical to keep .
    and I find that the team she was sensible in the choice of the distro

    Again it is my opinion ....

  4. #14
    My life is this forum Barry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virchanza View Post
    By dependency hell, do you mean:

    1) Getting compiler errors like "libnet.h not found".
    2) Getting errors when you actually go to run the program.
    3) Both

    (I'm genuinely curious)
    Yes. Or you just want to install feh, which is stupidly small, but have to install 200Mb of other stuff first.
    Of course, if you really wanted to have some fun, go to Wal-Mart late at night and ask the greeter if they could help you find trashbags, roll of carpet, rope, quicklime, clorox and a shovel. See if they give you any strange looks. --Streaker69

  5. #15
    Moderator KMDave's Avatar
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    All your base are belong to us?

    Seriously, Ubuntu is nice to use and saves quite some time. But it won't teach people the important stuff where all the files are and what to customize if needed. If there is not a GUI a lot of people will be screwed.

    But you also have to keep in mind the audience for which BT is intended. That is not the Linux n00b who just switched from Windows to Ubuntu configuring everything via a nice and shiny gui.
    Tiocfaidh ár lá

  6. #16
    Very good friend of the forum Virchanza's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barry View Post
    Yes. Or you just want to install feh, which is stupidly small, but have to install 200Mb of other stuff first.
    The "dependency hell" you describe is to do with programming on all operating systems, not just Linux. You'll get the same thing on MSWindows. Have you ever tried to run a program in MSWindows only to have it say something like "msgtl32.dll not found"? That error comes from the operating system, not from the program itself. Before the program begins execution, the operating system takes a look at the list of DLL files the program needs, and if any of them aren't found it won't run the program. Also if you download some MSWindows source code, you might go to compile it and it says "msgtl.h not found".

    The thing about MSWindows programs though, is that they tend to come shipped with their dependencies (and rightly so!), so you rarely encounter dependency problems.

    If a Linux program doesn't have its dependencies shipped with it, and if it doesn't at least give a list of the dependencies it needs, then it's the fault of the person supplying the program. With my Internet Prober program for example, if people choose to download the program and compile it themselves, the readme file tells them exactly which libraries they need, and it even says how to install the libraries at the command line using "apt-get install"

    When I tried to compile netdiscover yesterday, I got errors saying "libnet.h" and "pcap.h" weren't found. I could have gone looking for a help file to say which libraries were needed, but instead I decided just to install each library one-by-one until the compiler errors went away. For instance, the first error I saw was "libnet.h not found", so I opened up a terminal and typed "apt-get install libnet-dev". Then I tried to compile it again, and I got more errors, this time saying "pcap.h" wasn't found, so I installed the pcap library. Next time I tried, it compiled without error.

    If a person spends a little time learning about the different stages of a C compiler, the whole dependency thing becomes very simple. Basically it boils down to three things:
    1) When compiling a C program, you need the necessary header files
    2) When linking a C program, you need the necessary object files
    3) When actually running the program, you need the necessary dynamic-link-library files

    The first two requirements are usually satisfied by:

    Code:
    apt-get install libmonkey-dev
    whereas the last one is usually satisfied by:

    Code:
    apt-get install libmonkey
    My own opinion about Linux, is that you learn most by going to the "lowest layer" whenever you want to achieve something. For instance, if I'm in Ubuntu and I want to change my username, I have three options:
    1) Open up the GUI program they have for doing it
    2) Run "usermod" at the commandline
    3) Edit the "passwd" file myself

    If I choose option 1, then I won't know how to do it on every single Linux system because not every Linux system is guaranteed to have that program.

    If I choose option 2, then I'll be able to do it on every Linux system.

    If I choose option 3, then I'll be able to do it on every Linux system, plus I'll learn about the innards of how the whole user system works.

    I'd choose option 3 at the start to get a feel for how it works, but then I'd start using option 2 for convenience after I feel as though I know how it works. I had a similar situation in Microsoft Windows when it came to disabling startup programs... you have the option of manually going through the system registry, through the win.ini file, through autoexec.bat... or you can just run "msconfig" and untick the boxes beside the programs you don't want. I use msconfig all the time, but I'm comfortable using it because I know exactly how it works.
    Ask questions on the open forums, that way everybody benefits from the solution, and everybody can be corrected when they make mistakes. Don't send me private messages asking questions that should be asked on the open forums, I won't respond. I decline all "Friend Requests".

  7. #17
    Moderator KMDave's Avatar
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    And that is exactly what I try to say all the time.

    That is why guys who are new to Linux shouldn't start with BT.
    Tiocfaidh ár lá

  8. #18
    My life is this forum Barry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Virchanza View Post
    The "dependency hell" you describe is to do with programming on all operating systems, not just Linux.
    Right, that I know. Slackware doesn't do the apt-get thing. So you get to manually track down every dependency that is missing and install them. Yea, I know there's that slapt-get app, but it's kinda new(couple years) Slackware didn't have that when I started playing around with linux. Usually with Ubuntu you do an apt-get install blah, and it will automagically install all the dependencies. It's fairly newb proof.
    Of course, if you really wanted to have some fun, go to Wal-Mart late at night and ask the greeter if they could help you find trashbags, roll of carpet, rope, quicklime, clorox and a shovel. See if they give you any strange looks. --Streaker69

  9. #19
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    its no big deal to me, I'm not trying to prove anything. Ubuntu is slax as time is money; same thing basicly and its not windows.

    I think the same argument was made with metasploit vs. blabla manual. If it gets me to the target first, i win and then i'm gone or whatever. If i have to, i still know how to manually config things but man im strapped for time.

    im sure we've all tried many distros you don't have to use any program u don't need.

    don't work harder, work smarter

    BTW-- my hats off to the team and all involved with all versions. this is the software i've been lookin for, for years!! AWESOME AWESOME

  10. #20
    Super Moderator Archangel-Amael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KMDave View Post
    And that is exactly what I try to say all the time.
    That is why guys who are new to Linux shouldn't start with BT.
    Sorry KMDave but this in a way is contradictory.
    If we tell a Noob to go with an "easier" distro like ubuntu, then is that noob really going to learn anything. Maybe, maybe not. If there is a gui app for everything then this obviously will not teach a lot.
    But on the other hand if one is told to (especially with BT3) use it and learn then they might do so. The tools are mostly done from the command line.
    Not to mention there are a lot of tools that do not have a lot of simple how tos' that show what to do when something doesn't work as expected. So that noob has to either give up and move on or start reading and trying to figure it out.
    I think a lot of people will get turned off by the idea of using ubuntu because it is so easy to use. They will mess with it a few times and then probably run into a wall somewhere and turn back to windows.
    This is effective in helping to keep the skriddy population low, but it will not kill them all.
    On the other hand if they stick with a so called harder distro then they might actually learn and do more. Those same skriddies will of course hit a wall and give up but those who are determined will do it anyway. Those are the ones who will not just say ok I am going to go with something easier.

    I mean one has to wonder about the impact of the amount of haxor tools that are arriving with built in gui's. Does this in turn lead to more skriddies or not? I don't think so. They were bound to show up anyway. And those that are noobs and don't intend to learn anything will eventually give up and go away. But those that are determined to learn, will eventually figure it out.
    And that has nothing to do with a having a gui or not.
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