Gary McKinnon lost his battle to stand trial in the UK

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Originally Posted by aj123

While I am gonna try remain impartial, I find it very difficult being from England.
Quite simply put the extradition treaties are an absolutely one sided affair, without bleating on about them, check them out for yourselves.In short the onus on presenting evidence to extradite someone from the UK to the USA amounts to him having to prove he didn't do it, and not the US having to present any real evidence he did,conversly if the UK wishes to extradite an american, what they have to present is just about overwhelming proof of guilt.

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You'd have to take that up with the leaders of YOUR country since they're the ones that agreed to such a one sided treaty. They didn't have to agree to it.

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Like I said check it out....
Its more about shielding their embarrasement (he scanned for empty user/pass combos)than any real "crime", getting to which is the crux of the matter....
Legal is NOT Lawfull as we are lead to beleive.
The fundamental LAW of the universe is cause and effect, action reaction, and eventual ballance, as Imperial empires go this one is surely out of hand and is in the process of destroying itself, lets just hope they aren't childish enough to take the rest of our world with them when they go.
Common sense would dictate............give him 5-10 years in jail here and be done with it.

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Please define 'real crime'. Did he intrude upon a system he was not authorized to be in? If he did, he committed a real crime, regardless if their security was lax. He still committed the crime.

If you leave your front door open and someone comes in and steals everything you have, was a 'real crime' committed?

Just because he faces the POSSIBILITY of 60 years doesn't mean he gets it. Judges very rarely sentence the maximum for such things.

Correct, the leaders ARE the problem, but then so are the people who defend them.
Incidentaly how would you get a one sided deal.......bribery, corruption,coercement, threats, pressure.....seems to me theres a bit of a theme going on and a pattern forming..
As for real crime as you so aptly put it, well you'd actualy have to get out of this forum more often and find out.
In short a real crime is where a man or woman or child suffers real physical injury,loss or harm, everything else is a Statute/Bill/ACT..........and actualy requires consent of the governed to be enforced, unfortuantely most of us do not know it, the founding fathers tried to tell you, and warn you, you just forgot, so did we.
Yes if someone comes in your house and steals from you its........a crime, at least thats what my common sense tells me anyhow.
He definitly deserves to offer the USA some form of recompense, I am not disputing that, but putting the fear of the DEVIL into a man is quite simply evil and certainly dosent go anywhere towards making friends, respect is not got from threat of violence or overwhelming superior firepower all that gets is FEAR, which Im sure you'd agree is counterproductive to human evolution, respect and harmony.
The world is a shit hole because of the actions of a few and personaly I do not think he (Garry McKinnon) is one of them.
When are OUR leaders gonna stand trial for genocide....and lets face it theres at least some compelling evidence...;)
AJ

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Originally Posted by aj123

Correct, the leaders ARE the problem, but then so are the people who defend them.
Incidentaly how would you get a one sided deal.......bribery, corruption,coercement, threats, pressure.....seems to me theres a bit of a theme going on and a pattern forming..

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Unless you were there during the negotiations of that treaty, you don't know what the actual circumstances were surrounding it's signing. So you're just throwing out wild ideas regarding it. The law is there and it should be enforced as it currently stands. They should not be picking and choosing which laws to follow and which they should not. After all, isn't that what Gary did? He chose not to follow the law regarding the invasion of someone else's network.

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As for real crime as you so aptly put it, well you'd actualy have to get out of this forum more often and find out.
In short a real crime is where a man or woman or child suffers real physical injury,loss or harm, everything else is a Statute/Bill/ACT..........and actualy requires consent of the governed to be enforced, unfortuantely most of us do not know it, the founding fathers tried to tell you, and warn you, you just forgot, so did we.

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So since no one was hurt, this isn't a 'real crime'? You're attempting to interject moral relativity into this discussion. He committed a crime, therefore he should be tried and punished if found guilty.

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Yes if someone comes in your house and steals from you its........a crime, at least thats what my common sense tells me anyhow.
He definitly deserves to offer the USA some form of recompense, I am not disputing that, but putting the fear of the DEVIL into a man is quite simply evil and certainly dosent go anywhere towards making friends, respect is not got from threat of violence or overwhelming superior firepower all that gets is FEAR, which Im sure you'd agree is counterproductive to human evolution, respect and harmony.
The world is a shit hole because of the actions of a few and personaly I do not think he (Garry McKinnon) is one of them.
When are OUR leaders gonna stand trial for genocide....and lets face it theres at least some compelling evidence...;)
AJ

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Try to leave the rest of politics out of this and discuss the issue at hand.

Wild ideas, well the Irish voted a resounding NO to the lisbon treaty, not being happy with the result the LEADERS made them have another vote and were actualy quoted as saying that they would not stop till they got a yes vote.
If thats not an example of how treaties are formed/made then I surely do not know what is...

Correct I am attempting to inject moral relativity into this discussion, the whole basis of LAW is that it should be based on commonly accepted morals, the antithesis of which are statutes/act's and bills........black and white world where everything is just business.
You cant live in the black and white world as it is only FICTIONAL, he (Garry) is a man a real living being, therefore moral subjectivity is an absolute requirement of fairness, justice and harmony.
The absolute fear he has suffered is uncalculable from our point of view(unless it's happend to us) ,it is however imagionable and I (probably most people) can imagine what is going on in his mind, and have the common sense to realise he has and is still suffering and probably will never dream of doing it again....which is Im sure youll agree is the whole point of the fear, intimidation and threats, I for one wouldn't beat a child sensless if there was even a reasonable ammount of evidence to suggest the child had learned their lesson....
Politics is life and life is politics, this whole board is politics as is the whole thought process of a human being, you cant blinker your self into categories and be ballanced,or you imprison yourself, and hence want to imprison everyone else at the same time,without even realising it.
It's a life (garry McKinnons) were discussing and one of his actions ,we cant just pretend theres nothing more about the man than one thing he did..!
There are reasons behind him as there are reasons behind the the people terrorising him out of his wits.
Is this a discussion..? or are the parameters of it confined to what someone says goes....
AJ

Raise your hand if you have actually been to prison and have any clue what you all are talking about. I didnt think so. The guy commited a crime against the US and now he has to pay for it HERE. Its very simple.

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Originally Posted by aj123

Wild ideas, well the Irish voted a resounding NO to the lisbon treaty, not being happy with the result the LEADERS made them have another vote and were actualy quoted as saying that they would not stop till they got a yes vote.
If thats not an example of how treaties are formed/made then I surely do not know what is...

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Actually, the Irish are an outlier. No one else votes to affirm treaties in the same way that they do. So that example just doesn't hold any water.

If you have issue with the The Extradition Act, which implements US-UK Extradition Treaty, you should probably take it up with your MP because Parliament is who passed it. In fact, that is exactly how this treaty was implemented.

Then again, Labour won't be around for much longer, so that's probably not viable option either.

(I give myself -1 points for politics) ;)

Ok then....the "coalition of the willing".......a quick look at the list says it all...bribery on that one, the new motorway steaming right thru the middle of the USA from Mexico......corruption.
Ha ha ha , yep mate looks like the EU are in charge now anyway........!
Getting back to Garry, most likely "karma" will win out the day for him , like streaker said ,they hardly ever give full whack sentencing.

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Originally Posted by pureh@te

Raise your hand if you have actually been to prison and have any clue what you all are talking about. I didnt think so. The guy commited a crime against the US and now he has to pay for it HERE. Its very simple.

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Hand raised, and its only simple if you want it that way at the expense of others of course.
One more word from me and it looks like Ill be getting banned, oh dear here it comes.............why wont the US extradite Colon Powell to the Hague as requested....? and Donald Rumsfeld...? They comitted crimes in too numerous to mention Nation states, or shouldn't they pay for it there..?
This discussion is now going nowhere co's the mods obviously don't want it too, more likely they would just love to wield a bit power to satisfy their egos.
Im off to work, whatever you say guys .....after all your in charge..

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Originally Posted by aj123

Correct I am attempting to inject moral relativity into this discussion, the whole basis of LAW is that it should be based on commonly accepted morals, the antithesis of which are statutes/act's and bills........black and white world where everything is just business.
You cant live in the black and white world as it is only FICTIONAL, he (Garry) is a man a real living being, therefore moral subjectivity is an absolute requirement of fairness, justice and harmony.

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Moral relativity has no place in regards to criminal law. Criminal law is to be applied equally across the board. Is it, no it's not. But attempts are made to do so.

But let's look at what you said there. "...the whole basis of LAW is that it should be based upon commonly accepted morals". Is it morally wrong to break into something that you're not allowed to be in? I would say yes, but apparently you think differently. It wasn't like he was trying to save a child being held prisoner inside an evil witches house. No, he broke into a foreign military installation for his own selfish wants.

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The absolute fear he has suffered is uncalculable from our point of view(unless it's happend to us) ,it is however imagionable and I (probably most people) can imagine what is going on in his mind, and have the common sense to realise he has and is still suffering and probably will never dream of doing it again....which is Im sure youll agree is the whole point of the fear, intimidation and threats, I for one wouldn't beat a child sensless if there was even a reasonable ammount of evidence to suggest the child had learned their lesson....

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WMFPH! I don't give a fsck about the fear he's suffered. Had he not committed the crime he wouldn't have gotten the fear, and why do you keep referring to him as though he's some innocent child? Geebus, a just a couple years older than I am. If he hasn't learned by that late in life that it's wrong to do those things, then he deserves everything that's put on him.

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Politics is life and life is politics, this whole board is politics as is the whole thought process of a human being, you cant blinker your self into categories and be ballanced,or you imprison yourself, and hence want to imprison everyone else at the same time,without even realising it.
It's a life (garry McKinnons) were discussing and one of his actions ,we cant just pretend theres nothing more about the man than one thing he did..!
There are reasons behind him as there are reasons behind the the people terrorising him out of his wits.
Is this a discussion..? or are the parameters of it confined to what someone says goes....
AJ

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This can be discussed reasonably without going off into tangents like you've been going off on. He broke the law, the US has the right to extradite him, it's that simple. Nothing else is really germane to discussion.

Why the hell are we even talking about this? This isn't a general IT discussion, it's a political discussion.